Thanks Robin, I always play in a very direct style, and hardly ever play with others, so a lot of that escapes me.
Disregarding what the 'true' mode may be, I do find many tunes are a lot easier to play from one position rather than another
john
As you can see this shows a single setting, but can be translated in to the diatonic world in 3(or 4) different ways. DAD, DAA, DAG,( DAC) and thats without any transposing.
One reason I try not to talk in modes when it is more accurate to talk of gapped scales.
John P - I can understand that. The fact that many, many tunes are 'gapped' (Cripple Creek, Angeline the Baker, Shady Grove, Cluck Old Hen, Buffalo Gals etc etc) is a godsend at old time sessions as it saves a lot of re-tuning. I can play most of the 'standards' in more than one position on the freboard.
But I don't think it is more accurate to talk about gapped scales rather than modes as these aren't really cross modal tunes. They are just tunes that don't use all the notes from their 'home' mode and so you can cheat by moving them around the fretboard. For example, if you start to improvise on Cripple Creek or Angeline the Baker you very quickly realise that their 'home' mode is ionian even though the tunesthemselvescan be played on the mixolidian scale. I've not come across a tune yet that will truely work in more than one mode, when you start to harmonise or improvise they all have their 'home' mode. It is good though to know that you can get away with playing lots of tunes from different start points on the diatonic scale.
Sorry if you found that overkill John, to me everything you need to know is contained in that one table, you can dump anything else you've dragged in from the chromatic world.
Are you sure you understand how to tune a dulcimer, and not just learnt a couple of rules of thumb ?
It's a two stage process, first you tune the melody string, then you tune the drones accordingly, why are you expecting the keynote to turn up on the drones(although it usually does), it's the melody string you tune.
SMN is not a precise system by any means, it purports to be a 'one size fits al' but it's not.
Here's the SMN for Pretty Saro :
as you can see this shows a single setting, but can be translated in to the diatonic world in 3(or 4) different ways. DAD, DAA, DAG,( DAC) and thats without any transposing.
One reason I try not to talk in modes when it is more accurate to talk of gapped scales.
john
Quite true Paul - it can be confusing.
You are right the '1' does denote the keynote. Howevera '1' does not always appear as an open string. Some quite common tunings like 5-5-5 (D,d,d played in the key of G ionian from the 3rd fret) or5-5-4 (D-d-c played out of G dorianwith the keynote at the 4th fret) do not have a '1' on the open strings. If you can learn to find the '1', the keynote,by counting up the melody stringit will give you both the key and themodefor every possibletuning.
Paul Certo said:
The original question here was how to determine the keynote when changing from a tuning such as DAD to DGD. Let us not confuse each other with this issue. When we speak of dulcimer tunings as 155,158, 515, etc, the string we designate as "1" is tuned to the key note of the scale that tuning is used to play. To say that tunings don't have key notes is to confuse people. Adding an extra scale to a single tuning by way of the 6+ fret doesn't change the key note, it only allows us to play two modes from one tuning. Both of those modes, ionian and mixolydian, relate to the same Keynote.
While some may understand advanced music theory, many do not. And of those who do not, a good many play very well, and do not allow the lack of college level classes to hinder their enjoyment. Lets keep our answers to the point, and not go too deep. There are many lessons between beginning and advanced theory, those who are missing many of those lessons will become confused.
Paul
Hi John,
Transcribing modal folk tunes into SMN can be a wee bit problematic for us noter drone players as the 'convention' varies (ie. there is no convention!). So a tune that is in the key of A mixolidian mode may appear in SMN written on a key of D signature staff, because that's the scale of notes the mode actually uses although it starts and finishes on A.
http://thesession.org/tunes/7237/7237?print=true
(June Apple - Key of A mixolidian but written in key of D)
However, if you set your drones for key of D according to the key signature and then play the tune as written you will be in the wrong key and mode (because the modes sound is set by its relationship to the drones). This factor doesn't matter to fiddlers (most Appalachian tune SMN is written for/by fiddlers) as they are just playing the melody - so you quite often see key of A mixolidian tunes like June Apple, Red Haired Boy and Old Joe Clark written in the key of D in fiddle books although they are played off the page in the key of A and appear listed under 'Key of A Tunes'.In the same way,key of A Dorian tunes like Shady Grove or Frosty Morning are often witten in the key of G.
http://thesession.org/tunes/6467/6467?print=true
(Cold Frosty Morning - written in the key of G ionian but actually played off the page in the key of A dorian although there is no indication of that fact on the SMN here - a bit of a problem for us noter drone players when selecting drones!)
Alternatively, some transcribers would write a key of A mixolidian tune on a key of A signature staff and then use accidentals to define the mode.
http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/session-mandolin-tab/pdf/old_joe_...
(Old Joe Clark - also A mixolidian but this time written in the key of A with accidentals)
The trouble with this approach is that when you get to something like key of A aeolian you end up with accidentals all over the staff and it becomes unreadable - so in that case the tune may be written as the key of C on the staff but would need to be played against A and/or E drones on the dulcimer!!!!!! But you have to know that the tune is in A rather than C, although you are playing the C scale notes and the tune is written on the page in C ionian.
I have also seen some pieces written with a two step variation. So, for example, our key of A aeolian tune may be written in the key of G but with a mixolidian accidental (F sharp moved to F) yet we would need to find key of A drones to play the tune in A aeolian!
Some dulcimer teaching books are particulary fond of doing this because they write everything from the key of D staff but may be playing in another key and then find they have to 'accidental' their way around the tune or the 6+.
I think that the most 'dulcimer friendly' SMN I have seen is written in the key signature of the note placed at the 3rd fret (ie key of D key signature for A mixolidian like the first examples above) - but then the true key of the piece is written top left at the start of the tune. So, as an example, 'F Dorian' would be written above a staff showing a key of Eb key signature (the tune being written in Eb) and then you'd know straight away that C and F drones would be OK to play against your melody string tuned to Bb.
There, see how easy it is to play in keys and scales on our little diatonic instrument
Its a good job folk music is an aural tradition or you'd need a PhD to play the dulcimer!
Robin
John Hockett said:
I must have said something incorrectly. You make my point but with overkill. Modes is modes, but we play in keys and scales or else we could not transcribe into staff notation.
The original question here was how to determine the keynote when changing from a tuning such as DAD to DGD. Let us not confuse each other with this issue. When we speak of dulcimer tunings as 155,158, 515, etc, the string we designate as "1" is tuned to the key note of the scale that tuning is used to play. To say that tunings don't have key notes is to confuse people. Adding an extra scale to a single tuning by way of the 6+ fret doesn't change the key note, it only allows us to play two modes from one tuning. Both of those modes, ionian and mixolydian, relate to the same Keynote.
While some may understand advanced music theory, many do not. And of those who do not, a good many play very well, and do not allow the lack of college level classes to hinder their enjoyment. Lets keep our answers to the point, and not go too deep. There are many lessons between beginning and advanced theory, those who are missing many of those lessons will become confused.
Paul
Hi John,
This starts to get very complicated if you apply chromatic theory. Trying to squeeze 7 modes into 2 scales gets confusing.
Diatonic theory would say that the modes are based on intervals and, as such, are independent of key. All this means is that the tunings are relative, not absolute. You only need to tie things down to an absolute pitch if you are singing or playing with others.
Here is a chart that is based on intervals :
The 6+ fret comes from superimposing a second fretboard a fifth above the first.
IOW by adding 4 to the home fret you will get an alternative home fret that uses the 6+
e.g Ionian 3+4 (-7) = 0 can be played from the Mixalydian position with a 6+
Mixalydian 0+4 = 4 can be played from the Dorian position with a 6+
Dorian 4+4 (-7) = 1 can be played from the Aeolian position with a 6+
Aeolian 1+4 = 5 can be played from the Phrygian position with a 6+
etc.
john
Hi John,
I have come across a few tunes that don't resolve and so the mode (and drone selection) are a bit difficult to spot. The Blackest Crow isone. It sounds like a minor tune but it is an unresolvedmajor key tune that finishes on the 6thnote (and minor chord) leaving everything hanging and in tension! A good versionof the tune to listen to in order to get the sound of thatunresolved ending is the one they played on the Transatlantic sessions.
In fact at the 1.53 mark theyswitch the phrase end note to a major chord, which passesunoticed!
john p said:
Thanks for looking at that Robin, explains to me more of what I'm doing.
I never do resolve the tune, I like to hear it left hanging. I've reduced it to pentatonic, gapped at the 2nd and 5th, so start and end on the same note, It can be played out of the 2nd, 5th or 8th fret like that.
john
Some players use reverse tunings because the strings we have on our dulcimers will not raise or lower enough to use traditional tunings. My normal tuning is DAdd. If I want to play in G, I can't lower or raise my low D string to G. It is easy to lower the middle from A to G, giving me the reverse tuning DGdd. This places my root, G, on the middle string. And many of us do tune the drones to our key, then tune the melody string to the mode we need. But sometimes we have issues with too loose/ too tight strings for the melody strings as well. This can sometimes dictate what keys/modes we can actually reach with certain gauges of strings.
On diatonic instruments,capos not only change the key, they also change the mode. The best way to grasp this concept is to find a book that uses tabs with a capo. It becomes clearer with practice.
Paul
Hi John,
I've just had a look at 'The Curra Road'
Ger Wolfe plays it in the key of C - It is an ionian tune so CGG will work fine. The 'home fret' is the 3rd fret. The tune starts on the 5th fret but resolves to the 3rd the second time through Part A and at the end of Part B.
Robin
[edit] I've recently put up a piece called 'The Curra Road'. Convention would say this is one of the minor modes, but none of the ones I tried really suited the words. I ended up using a simple Ionian tuning, but playing out of the Locrian position (Home = 2nd fret).
john
Hi Babs,
No, I don't capo - I re-tune my drones. Have a look at this:
http://mountaindulcimer.ning.com/group/oldstyledronenoterplayers/page/tunings-for-noter-drone-beginner-intermediate
The principle of tuning, which John also mentioned above, is that the drones are there to support the melody whatever key and mode that melody is in.
The thing to get hold of is that the drones don't define the keynote, rather the keynote defines the drones.
The basis for n/d tunings is the Home fret, this is invariably the fret that the tune ends on. and is where you tune your keynote.
IOW, if you tune the melody string to D and then play an Ionian tune, you will be ending on a G, what your guitarist hears.
It's after that you tune the drones. The idea here is to provide a constant reference to this keynote whilst playing, something that can be used to gauge the intervals being used and firmly establish the mode. The octave and the fourth/fifth give the best grounding for this and are usually chosen for the drones.
This is what makes DGD an Ionian tuning, the 'reverse' of the more conventional, and not easilly tuned, GDD
Some tunes you may want to use a cross tuning, where the drones are not where you would conventionally put them. depends on the feel you're aiming at. Regardless, the keynote is always at your Home fret.
[edit] I've recently put up a piece called 'The Curra Road'. Convention would say this is one of the minor modes, but none of the ones I tried really suited the words. I ended up using a simple Ionian tuning, but playing out of the Locrian position (Home = 2nd fret).
john
Hi Ken,
Yep - most of the time I'm playing with the bass string being the 'keynote', but not always. And for the type of playing I do - playing a lot at sessions - I need to know the key I'm playing in and the mode within that key. So I've had to work out a system for understanding tunings that suits my playing - but the system I use for working out tuningsmay notsuit the way others play - and it is not the way that tunings and modes were explained by the likes of Bonnie Carol or Jean Ritchie.
My guitarist friend keeps saying I'm in the key of G when I'm tuned Ddd or DAd. I think there may be two "keynotes" here.
I learned "keynote" as a word in reference to the instrument, not the scale being played on that instrument. "That dulcimer is in the key of D" (and as Bonnie Carol taught decades ago, with dulcimers that refers to the note to which the bass string is tuned); not "I'm playing this song in the key of G".
Hi Ken and Babs,
In some tunings the keynote does not appear in the drones at all. D,d,d may have the keynote of D in the drones or that tuning could be played as the key of G, with the keynote being on the 3rd fret of the melody string and not appear in the drones at all.At least half of the traditionalGalax tunes are in the key of G from d,d,d,d tuning!
Personally, I would not use the term 'keynote' in relation to the drones at all but instead find it on the melody string. For example, for the key of D ionian the keynote is at the 3rd fret on the melody string. The drones will be either the root or the 5th of the D ionian scale - and they will work in any combination. You could have D,A,A or D,d,A or A,d,A or A,A,A - all of those tunings would be key of D ionian tunings and A,A,A would also be key of A mixolidian. They would each have a slightly differnt feel to them but they would all work.
When I'm learning a new tune I always start with the melody string and place the keynote on the correct fret first. So if I was playing in A dorian then I would place an 'a' at the 4th fret (so my string would be tuned to d). My drones would need to be either A or E in any combination A,A or A,E, or E,A or E,E. Depending on the feel I wanted from the tune and the ability of the bass and middle string gauges to reach certasin notes I would decide which drone combination to select.
Robin
The traditional Modal Tunings all have the bass string as the Keynote:
Ionian........DAA
Locrian.......DAB
Aeolian.......DAC
Mixolydian...DAD
Lydian........DAE
Phrygian.....DAF
Dorian........DAG
Bagpipe Tuning.... Ddd and Galax Tuning........ddd, also have the bass string as the Keynote.
There is some Circle of Fifths apparently sound Musical Theory reason why the so-called Reverse tunings (like Reverse Ionian...DGd) can have the keynote on another string. Someoine will surely come along and confuse me again with the reasoning, I'm sure.
Reverse Ionian is the most common middle string keynote tuning, but there are a couple others. But I personally don't use those tunings and have never bothered to absorb the theory.
Randy, I had that dulcimer at Dulcimerville. I don't know if you remember seeing it on the table. It was the one from the Joseph Wallo pattern.
Ken
Randy Adams said:
Not so long Ken...but interesting! I had mentioned International Violin in the past and you replied at that time with the 'short' version. Good to hear the longer story.
Not my first dulcimer, but an interesting story nonetheless. About 3 years ago, just after I retired, I thought to go into the Peace Corps. Mercenary reason, not humanitarian - I could bank my monthly Social Insecurity payments for 2+ years while living at the government's expense and get a $5000 buy out at the end of the tour. That would give me a big nest-egg to purchase a newer retirement boat to liveaboard when I returned. The PC wanted me to go to Africa and teach forestry (my degrees). I planned to take my 'worldly goods' in two footlockers, but all my dulcimers were too long to fit therein. Harpmaker said he could make me a slightly customized version of his Student Model that would fit in one of the cases -- no extended tuning head, autoharp tuning pins and a taller fretboard for noter & drone play. So I said, "Why not", and commissioned him to build it.
Long story short: just after Harpmaker sends me the new dulcimer, and a month after meeting a wonderful lady, the Peace Corps tells me they won't take me without a bunch of periodontal dental work I couldn't afford at the time.
So... I never did go to Africa, and thus avoided the Arab Spring uprisings which seriously impacted the area to which I would have been sent. The dulcimer still sounds wonderful, and Lady Sally and I have been together for about 2-1/2 years now. Oh... and I finally have been able to get half the periodontal work done that they wanted me to have -- for a mere $3000! By the time I'm 80 I'll have perfect teeth (or a complete set of falsies) paid for.
The story of my first dulcimer is rather long so bear with me. I wanted a dulcimer, but being a student, getting married, and with graduate school I could just not afford it. In 1973 I met a young man at the Iguana Coffeehouse in Washington, DC. We became friends and in 1974 he told me he was going to build a dulcimer. A man he knew who was retired from the Atomic Energy Commission where he worked was going to teach him how to make it. He told me they were going to Baltimore to buy some wood at International Violin Company. I asked if I could go along. He checked with the man and I was able to go with them. At International Violin Company I picked out six rosewood guitar sides (2 sides make the back and one side is split for the dulcimer sides) and two pieces of sitka spruce for the tops. I had enough wood to build two mountain dulcimers. I also purchased some rosewood tuning pegs and strings. On my day off I would travel from the inner city to Bethesda, Maryland to the man's workshop and work on the dulcimer. After about eight weeks I had a dulcimer.
Now there is more to the story. I was assistant pastor at Luther Place Memorial Church in Washington, DC. The coffeehouse was part of our church's ministry to the young adults of DC area. It turns out the man my friend knew was a member of the church. I had not met him because he always attended the early service which the senior pastor always led. Since I was up late with the coffeehouse folks on Saturday night, I didn't usually arrive at the church until 9:30 a.m. on Sunday mornings. The man, whose name is George, and I became good friends. I built five dulcimers in his workshop during my time at that church. George was worried about taking his pastor to International Violin Company in Baltimore as it was located on "The Block" which is where all the strip clubs were at the time. IVC was located above the theatre where Blaze Starr was performing. George's hobby after retiring from the AEC was building violins although he had also made a dulcimer and a guitar.
Oh, and by the way, to the best of my knowledge, the young man who said he was going to build a dulcimer never did. We lost track of each other after we both left Washington so maybe has by now, but not back then.
My first dulcimer arrived by Reindeer-powered sleigh, on Christmas Day, 1990. Mrs. Wanda decided I should play dulcimer, and so it was written. The box contained a lot of sassafras wood pieces, none of which were shaped like the pictures in Foxfire, but with glue, varnish, and some tools, it eventually acquired an hourglass shape. Working with sassafras has a small problem, every day after work I spent a little time working on it, and nearly every evening the fragrance sent me looking for a glass of Root Beer. It was not enough to buy a 12 pack and be done, Mrs. Wanda decreed that root beer without ice cream floating in it just was not to be accepted. My next dulcimer was walnut & spruce, I weigh enough without a daily dose of root beer float! The fragrance faded over several years, but a certain amount of humidity tends to boost it somwhat.
Paul
Ah, Sharna, I've a song my husband & I are working on for Paint Creek Folklore Society's monthly Song Swap about Elderly. Unfortunately it's to the tune of two songs that are under copyright so we can't send them here
.
Like you, I've told about my 1st dulcimer here already. Mine was what some call a Junker. I'll just say it was an Orphan. I was prowling an antique mall that was a bit of a flea market in the section where I saw it hanging off the end of some bookshelves. (Books are a magnet for this Bibliomaniac.) The poor baby was made locally here in Michigan, but I'll protect the name of the maker as it was of the thinnest plywood, probably to make it affordable. Whoever sold and bought it didn't know to take the strings off tension, so its body and fingerboard suffered. I thought the fingerboard looked straight, but my demanding teacher disagreed. He had my husband file down the Bridge and Nut (no, not me!) and do all he could to glue and clamp the body as tightly as possible. The body wants to pull apart, especially right under the Fingerboard, so I kept it in DAA for the least tension possible.
It's funny, but I took my acoustic bass guitar the spring before finding my Orphan to a day-long folk music gathering that turned out to be offered by area dulcimer folks, both hammered and mountain. At that time a year-long loan of a mountain dulcimer was offered and I foolishly didn't expect to want such a thing since I already have quite a menagerie of instruments. Never say never!
I don't regret adopting my Orphan. It convinced me this was a good instrument for me. Now if I just stay off the computer long enough, I'll improve on my new Folk Craft dulcimer bought where else? . . . Elderly!
Oh, Lord, lead me not into temptation for I can find it myself!!!
Sharna, you are fortunate to be near Elderly instruments. They do excellent work. I had them sell a banjo for me and had them recondition it before selling it. I was impressed with what they did. It was better than new. That is a wonderful story about how you acquired your Blue Lion. I purchased mine with money that was left over from settling my father's estate. Every time I pick it up I think of him.
Fret leveling is very common on stringed instruments. I have had a couple guitars need it over time, and one dulcimer is getting close. It's about 22 years old. When the strings wear grooves into the frets, and buzzing starts to occur, they need leveling. This is done with a file, and then they are crowned to bring back the correct shape. After this they are polished and you are back in business. After having them leveled 2 or 3 times, they may have to be replaced when they become grooved again. This can be many years down the line, or not so many, depending how much you play, how hard your strings are, etc. Stainless strings are harder than the fret wire, and the frets wear faster. Brass fret wire is even softer, and should only be used with gut/nylon strings. If brass is even available any more. If you aren't hearing buzzing, you probably don't need to do anything at this time. Seems unfair to bad mouth a luthier who isn't available to defend himself, particularly if we haven't seen the dulcimer in question. We don't know how much fret wear is visible.
Paul
Shana what you need to look for is fret wear. This is usually a groove in the top of the fret worn there from pressing down on the strings. My ten year old Blue is showing some fret wear on the third through fifth frets. It is not enough to replace them yet. The only reason to re-level the frets would be if some were worn down and others were not. In leveling the frets you file down the crown and the crown needs to be put back which is rounding them. Sighting down the fret board should allow you to see if the there are any high frets.
Blue Lion! I met Janita at Mount Dora last weekend. Unless you are moving your dulcimer from -50F to +120F daily, you shouldn't have to re-level your frets either. If it sounds good, leave well enough alone.
I don't want to say anything really negative about your "luthier", but IMHO he's looking to make easy money off you for something that doesn't need doing. If I had a Blue Lion, no one but Janita or Robert would touch it -- I simply wouldn't let some local "luthier" touch it. You've got the creme de la creme of dulcimers, don't let some 'shade tree mechanic' mes with it.
It depends on the quality of the frets used in the initial construction. You hardly ever hear of a complete fret job; just the occasional single fret replacement. I have a vintage dulcimer which is over 50 years old and it doesn't need a fret job. If there are grooves in the frets where the strings run, you might consider it. IMHO it sounds like your luthier is trying to drum up some extra business...
Hi Kendra,
I'm a lefty but I play right handed. I also play other instruments; guitar, whistle, smallpipes; in every case I learned right handed. My son is also a lefty and plays violin and mandolin right handed.
The one problem I can see if your students learn a special lefty method like reversing strings, they will always have to reverse everything from what the majority is doing; such as when they learn new songs or follow tabs/videos from other players.
I like playing the regular right handed way so I can share...."here, sit down, try my dulcimer..." My vote would be to have your students play right handed and not worry about it. Lefties will automatically reverse if they need to, and for most tasks we don't need to! I will admit I needlepoint upside down and I used to depend on lefty scissors.
I will also be teaching some kids this spring, can't wait!
Hope this helps
Sue
I always felt that what we refer to as "Right Handed" playing is backwards. We need the dexterity more on the fret board than for strumming. But the reality is, both hands have a job to do, and both have to learn that job first. I don't think either hand is incapable of learning both jobs, but few people would bother learning to play both ways. If the students are playing guitar or another stringed instrument, let them continue to fret with the hand they have been using. If they are new to stringed instruments, it really shouldn't matter. It's all a matter of training each hand to do it's job. Some years back, when I had Carpal Tunnel Syndrome in my left hand, I tried a lefty guitar to see if I might need to switch. The 35 or so years I had been playing was all right handed, and neither hand had paid any attention to it's counterpart. It was just like Deja Vous, all over again.I gave up the lefty guitar idea & had surgery instead.
Paul
I think most Corry-handed folks play right handed. That way their dominant hand is doing the delicate work of fingering/notering while their less skilled hand is doing the 'grunt work' of strumming out a rhythm. I suppose if they want to learn finger- or flat-pick style, then reversing the strings would be the better choice.
I've only taught one class of seniors, and 2 of the 10 were lefties. One was brand new to playing any instrument, he just learned right handed and said it didn't bother him. The other is a long time guitar player, he plays leftie but kept the strings as is for a right handed player. It doesn't help much but may lead to letting them try what works for them.